Talk:Monster in the Locker

Isn't this that one monster vibrating in a sack?

I always thought this was Valtiel, since he's always around freaking out Heather.--Butterscotchboy 03:13, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Lol, Valtiel does have a habbit of freaking heather out every chance he gets.--Dfskelleton 07:41, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

I also thought this was Valtiel. Final Blaster 05:04, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

It's clearly him(or reused texture). 31 1.072N 79 2.15E (talk) 01:43, November 16, 2018 (UTC)

Redirect
Since I redirected the page, I felt like I should leave an explanation why. If you look closely at the image, it's clearly Valtiel from his backside hanging upside down (you can zoom in by clicking the image and pressing "Ctrl" and "+"):

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/silent/images/4/47/LockerMonster.PNG/revision/latest?cb=20160326181823

The bottom sack is just the back of his mask, the top is the bottom of his skirt, the fleshy things on the side are his arms, and the rest of it is his back. You can also see the stitching on his upper back, which is a distinctive enough trait of both Valtiel and Pyramid Head that it's talked about in Lost Memories: Silent Hill Chronicle:

"At the back of the garment Pyramid Head wears, there is a mark where the cloth is stitched together, which is also a shared characteristic."

- Tarot I - The Magician

Darkknight2149 (talk) 05:29, 14 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The decision to redirect was contested by Alex, so I tagged some recurring editors to get a consensus. Darkknight2149 (talk) 19:21, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

 I uploaded a screenshot in higher resolution and it's Valtiel from the back. We can ask in twitter if there are any doubts.Octonius (talk)

Here's my reasons for why I don't think the wiki should state the monster is Valtiel like a fact:
 * In the PS2 days, not everything was supposed to be seen in crystal clear high-definition 1080P, many developers worked around the 480i limitations: as long as things looked blurry and ambiguous from a distance, it was enough for them, which could also explain why the monster vibrates so much, possibly in order to make it less recognizable. Team Silent introduced the Noise Effect for a similar reason, to hide the CGI shortcomings.
 * It could just be a similar entity to Valtiel, not everything resembling Valtiel is Valtiel, just like how the figure in Hilltop Center clinging to a baby resembles Valtiel but is not him. It could even be Valtiel's brother or cousin for all we know. Or perhaps not Valtiel at all, just a monster looking similar to Valtiel or one that wears his clothes.
 * There is no official source saying it's Valtiel.
 * It doesn't make sense for why Valtiel is behind the nearby smoke screen glass outside the room (where he's playing with a nurse), then inside the locker at the same time. It takes like 5 seconds to walk between the locker and the glass.
 * If it were Valtiel, Heather comments it's like a "child locked up on there with no chance of escape". If the monster is doomed and trapped there, it makes no sense how he escapes and returns to the chapel later.

People can ask Ito, if he says it's Valtiel, then I'll eat my words (as long as his reply is unambiguous), but for now at this moment in time, there's simply not enough information for us to claim it's Valtiel like a fact. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  21:45, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Although I haven't played this series much, I concur with Alex. It's impossible to conclusively assume that it's Valtiel. Unless a developer of the game says something, it's not right to jump the gun and say "this is a certain character" without concrete evidence, or that "he or she is dead". (A similar thing has happened with Syphon Filter, whose fandom website I'm an admin of, when people claim that "Gabe Logan is dead" or something but never actually back it up with proof. At least in that case John Garvin has PERSONALLY said that Logan was indeed killed, and a Sony Bend artist also confirmed this)

So there's NO reason whatsoever to assume that this is certainly Valtiel.


 * 1) This is a series that screws with your mind, so something in the real world would be ANOTHER thing in the nightmare world. And given how much of the game is black and how much is white, it's definitely impossible to say what is in between.
 * 2) How the hell would the creature that drags you away upon Heather's death somehow be trapped behind a locker? We can't even SEE what the heck is stuck in that thing.
 * 3) As Alex said and I repeated, nobody on the game team has said anything about WHAT that thing is.

Spirit Slasher (talk) 01:31, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I'm really not sure where these objections coming from. To me, it's pretty obvious that it's Valtiel in a locker just by looking at it. The game does nothing to hide it. From my point of view, this is sort of like demanding a developer quote for "The sky is blue." And honestly, who says he's trapped? Later in the game, he enters an equally cramped crawlspaced on his own free will. It's certainly Valtiel's character model (the high res images and his identifying features make that clear), so what reason do we have to believe it's anything else? Darkknight2149 (talk) 07:53, 16 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I don't have a Twitter account anymore, but if someone is willing to ask Ito about it, that could be helpful. Darkknight2149 (talk) 08:07, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Because there's reasonable enough doubt, lots of questionable aspects like the points mentioned above (if Valtiel is the locker monster, how can he teleport behind the glass 5 seconds after Heather leaves the room, then teleport back inside the room in yet another 5 seconds it takes to re-enter?) Heather implies the monster locker is trapped, and when you can watch the locker monster squirm and trash for minutes on end, it implies he's doomed. Like I said, the developers expected us to play on crappy CRT TVs in which a lot of detail was hidden by low-resolutions, not blow it up in crisp HD. They reused assets a lot back in the day because creating models takes time. Just because Angela's head and corpse appears in SH3, it doesn't automatically mean that's Angela. The locker monster could just be a transformed hospital patient made using a recycled Valtiel model to save time.

I don't like the idea of the locker monster being Valtiel either because imo, it ruins his characterization as being powerful. Valtiel is supposed to be a powerful angel who has power over the Otherworld shifts, and is seen abusing and dominating female figures to show his dominance. For him to just suddenly be in a position of doom and vulnerability, screwed and trapped in a locker, is very un-angel like. I don't like the idea of Valtiel just screwing with Heather.

Due to no official source and the realm for different possibilities, it is very unprofessional for us to act like it's Valtiel as a fact. By all means, do a model check and see if the Seal of Metatron shoulder tattoo is there. I would even say Valtiel may not even be the chapel crawlspace monster either, those could very well be transformed chapel members, like the Missionary, and even Vincent raises the possibility of monsters being transformed people. I know I added those images of the chapel crawlers as being Valtiel years ago, but now that I've actually thought about it, I'm uncertain and we could use more proof of that. I don't have the game installed and I'm not in the mood to deal with installing flycams to check.

At the end of the day, things are not what they seem in Silent Hill. So many times have a lot of things seemed obvious to be true, but a developer has said otherwise. I see no harm in a Trivia point saying that the monster inexplicably resembles Valtiel a lot and seems to wear his clothes and could possibly be Valtiel, and I don't see why that isn't satisfactory enough to move on. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  09:14, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

I am in strong agreement that we should not claim "that's Valtiel!" as fact for many reasons already stated that I won't drag out, but I'll mention those I see as most important:
 * 1) It is probably just Valtiel's model repurposed. Very much like Alex stated in regards to Angela's model, this does not equate to the actual identity of the monster being Valtiel.
 * 2) We are not the game developers, nor do we have any bulletproof words from the creators to make what would be a pretty big and confusing claim for reasons Alex also mentioned.

Silent Hill is a very, very mysterious world that we should not claim to understand so well when we had absolutely no hands on its creation and the intentions behind every scene. Maybe it is Valtiel, his duplicity simply explained by the powers of the Otherworld, but I just don't feel we should call it fact here. I pretty firmly agree that a trivia fact would do perfectly, because I do feel it worthy of being mentioned as a possibility, but nothing more. ╟_Ωzz… &#12288; t a l k 15:36, 16 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I checked Lost Memories: Silent Hill Chronicle, which goes through a list of each creature in the series, and the entire text makes no reference to a locker monster. Here is just the creature commentary for reference.


 * I should mention that some of these points were discussed here. Although Silent Hill 3 reuses assets (Lying Figure, Fukuro, Angela, James, ETC), these are all assets from other games in the series and they are all retooled or obscured in some way. In this case, it's just Valtiel's backside doing something from within a locker.


 * I don't believe the game does anything to imply that the creature is trapped either. Even if that's what it looks like to Heather, she is likely just as confused as the player. For all we know, he could be manhandling another creature or performing some sort of ritual.


 * I would also like to point out that there isn't any duplicity or teleportation that necessarily needs to be happening. Not only would that depend on how soon Heather enters the locker room, but the laws of time and physics are canonically distorted  in the Otherworld. In fact, it has been stated by canonical sources that the reverse side lies "on the boundary between reality and unreality" where "the line between dream and reality is blurred". This is why manifestations of the subconscious mind, time loops, and other distortions are able to occur. Time isn't necessarily linear in the Otherworld.


 * That being said, if anyone has a Twitter account, the simplest way to confirm or debunk the locker monster being Valtiel is probably to ask Ito, since there's no mention of it in Lost Memories. Darkknight2149 (talk) 01:09, 17 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I hear you, and those are counter-points, but at the end of the day, they're just counter-points. At this point, we're diving too much into what-ifs, whataboutisms and speculation, on both sides. It's good to talk things out, but I'm tired of these long convos. We got 3 in favor of not claiming the monster locker is Valtiel like a fact, while 1 in support. For now, the article should be reverted back and you could add a Trivia point, Darkknight. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  01:54, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

It's certainly Valtiel because:
 * It's UNIQUE monster, monster-character so there can't be any doubles, it's like 3rd PH in SH2 or 2nd Leonard, certainly can't be
 * Radio doesn't make noise in the room like in other occassions
 * There is no model of the "similar" monster in game data
 * It exactly the same model, no texture alterations

"teleportation"
 * Valtiel teleports in earlier scene after transition to the Otherworld occurs, he turns valve handles and then suddenly is seen dragging a nurse on the 3rd floor.
 * He "teleports" in the chapel evwerywhere, crawls here, shaking nurse there, turning valve handles
 * He suddenly appears in the sanctuary to drag Claudia to the hole, and animation there looks like very rapid movement, much faster than his usual movements.

I think it's overanalyzing, and creating unnecessary complications, and it's obviously Valtiel (take a look at hi res screenshot), he is always somewhere nearby. And there is no any mention of a monster in the locker anywhere. And he isn't trapped, there is no floor in the locker, because his hand is lower than floor.Octonius (talk) 03:27, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

I honestly can't see how this is "obviously Valtiel" given the number of reasons that me and Alex explained. Spirit Slasher (talk) 04:41, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
 * (Edit conflict) I feel like most of those things have been addressed. I just don't see how we have any reason to believe it's not him or only a reused model, given that every other reused model was heavily tweaked and from another game. The stitching on his garment and the back of his mask are obvious identifiers, so it certainly is his untweaked character model at the very least.


 * I just don't find it plausible that they would reuse the character model of the game's borderline main antagonist (barring Claudia) for a random creature in a locker with nothing covering it up but a few wires. We see random creatures in cages at the Otherworld theme park, and they didn't reuse any models for that. We also see Valtiel crawling in a tight crawlspace in the church, and there's no debate there. I'm surprised that this is controversial, but I can't speak for everyone.


 * A locker monster isn't listed in the creature commentary in Lost Memories. The only thing I could find on Ito's Twitter is this, which isn't helpful. Right now, it seems to be 3 in favour of "locker monster" and 2 in favour of "Valtiel". Darkknight2149 (talk) 05:12, 17 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Here's some more rebuttals (gosh, this is getting tiring...) Asset reusual was common, like the Mandarins and Closers, but they're considered separate monsters and given different names in the BOLM. The fact that there even exists a second PH proves that similar monsters with nearly exact same appearances can exist in the series, yet still be separate beings. Also, Valtiel's design isn't totally unique, his design appears as the figures in Midwich in SH1, shares similar attire to PH, as well as the figure holding a baby in Hilltop. Did you actually rip the model to find out, or are you just guessing from that screenshot? Like I said, "Look at this high-definition still screenshot!" doesn't mean much when the developers never intended for us to freeze the game to look at a vibrating figure and hyper zoom into it in HD.


 * The lack of radio could simply be developers overlooking it. It's evidence, but not absolute proof. Even certain appearances in the hospital and church could not be intended to be Valtiel. The "woah" pic is an easter egg of sorts that not every player would see, as well as certain places in the church (like outside Alessa's room). Perhaps all the devs wanted to see was a mysterious figure dragging a nurse away, not Valtiel. Yes, I know Valtiel teleports around in the church a lot (assuming every instance in the church is intended to be Valtiel), but there's usually at least always a few minutes in the church while exploring (as the developers assumed the player would explore, not rush immediately from one Valtiel area to the other). I don't think the Claudia example is a strong argument because there's literally a 5-10 minute cutscene, so Valtiel could've easily made his way to Claudia in that time. In the case of the locker monster, it's *too* immediate for it to make sense.


 * Saying the locker monster isn't trapped for sure because there might clipping issues is too reaching for me, acting as if there's a secret escape route in the locker, when you see it writhing endlessly and Heather outright says "it looks like a child locked up in there with no chance of escape." Clara in Rule of Rose, for example, shuts a drawer and says "Don't look in there!" She is obviously meant to be hiding something as part of the story, yet when players camhacked the game, there's nothing in the drawer, yet we can't claim "Clara was hiding nothing" like it's a fact. Cut corners and technical shortcomings do not dictate story canon. Is Lorenzo intended to be flying around the room as part of the story canon? Is Angela canonically supposed to be doing freaky twisting moves?


 * The theme park models are likely not Valtiel's model because they are still decor, while they clearly wanted a vibrating monster. Anyone who knows game design knows about animation and skeletons. Valtiel's model has moving bones, hence why they might've easily chosen his model there, while the theme park bodies are boneless. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  04:54, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Some of these points aren't the same scenario, though.


 * "Asset reusual was common, like the Mandarins and Closers, but they're considered separate monsters and given different names in the BOLM."


 * There is a lore reason for why they look the same and it's tied to Alessa's influence over the town. Plus, they have different movements and abilities. Ito explained at one point that he felt that the Mandarin was an under-appreciated design in Silent Hill 2, so they retconned the design from being a manifestation of James to Alessa's affect on the town in Silent Hill 3. Notice the drawing in her bedroom.


 * "The fact that there even exists a second PH proves that similar monsters with nearly exact same appearances can exist in the series, yet still be separate beings."


 * These weren't separate monsters or a "type" of monster. They were the exact same entity manifested twice. A second Pyramid Head only manifested after James killed Eddie, just as the first manifested from his guilt from killing his wife. There almost certainly weren't a bunch of different pyramid-hatted monsters in executioner robes roaming around the town during Silent Hill 2 (although this was retconned in Homecoming with the Bogeyman).


 * "Also, Valtiel's design isn't totally unique, his design appears as the figures in Midwich in SH1, shares similar attire to PH, as well as the figure holding a baby in Hilltop."


 * All of these things are connected, as explained by Ito and Lost Memories. The robes are corpses in body bags, which were members of the cult that were adorned in Valtiel's image. Pyramid Head has a similar attire to Valtiel because his physical appearance was inspired by James seeing paintings of Valtiel's executioners in the museum, who wore red hoods and robes in his image. This doesn't explain why a monster that looks 100% identical to Valtiel with the same character model would be found inside a locker. Valtiel himself is a singular entity in the cult's religion.


 * "Perhaps all the devs wanted to see was a mysterious figure dragging a nurse away, not Valtiel."


 * IIFC that actually was confirmed to be Valtiel at one point. The laws of time and physics are also warped in the Otherworld, so I'm not really sure if the "teleportation" thing is still relevant. Besides, doesn't Harry teleport in Midwich Elementary School? If they intended any monster that isn't Valtiel to not be Valtiel, I personally don't believe they would have made them identical without doing more to hide it. Relying mainly on SD televisions to hide something isn't a full proof plan and the original games are known for their attention to detail. Darkknight2149 (talk) 05:52, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

https://silenthillcommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=433202

This link discusses who the monster could be. Some claim Valtiel, but unless we get a word from the creator himself, I can't see myself subscribing to that belief. It's really kinda tiresome... :/ Spirit Slasher (talk) 06:23, 17 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The Mandarin/Closer is still an example of asset re-use (let's not get into the Butter Cake boxes found throughout 2/3/4), and they obviously never intended to shoehorn the Alessa explanation while creating 2, it was an after-the-matter thought. The "Two PHs" thing is going super into semantics so I don't want to address that. My main point is that Valtiel's design elements can be seen elsewhere. When they made SH3, they expected most players to have played the first two, and they knew we've gotten used to the idea of "there are figures wearing this robe, but not every entity wearing this robe is the same being" since the Midwich corpses, Pyramid Head, Valtiel, the Hilltop corpse, and even possibly this monster locker are not all the same being. Strictly speaking SH3, they weren't scared of showing us a being resembling Valtiel strongly in Hilltop as a prop, so to me, the monster locker isn't out of the question as being another Valtiel-ish prop. I did check Valtiel's section in BOLM and it says the chapel crawlspace is Valtiel, but it doesn't invalidate all the points we've made.


 * "This doesn't explain why a monster that looks 100% identical to Valtiel with the same character model would be found inside a locker."


 * We've already explained many various possibilities and points (asset reusal, not intending to see the twitching monster close-up in HD, obscured by resolution in PS2 days, wanting to easily create a vibrating monster so wanting to use an existing monster skeleton), you just don't seem to be considering any of them as valid, causing me and Spirit Slasher to get tired because we're going into circles. To you, it's just obviously Valtiel no matter what, it's a cold hard fact, and you're not willing to compromise to these counter-points... it seems? — Alex Shepherd   ツ  06:46, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

To quote Ben parker from the original Spiderman movie, "WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY". Editors on any fandom website should, needless to repeat, provide reliable references. Otherwise any Tom, Dick and Harry can conjure all sorts of stuff at their own whim and fancy. But admins, please, NO OFFENSE meant whatsoever. I rest my case. Spirit Slasher (talk) 07:53, 17 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I still think don't think it's ambiguous and (to be honest) think a lot of the comparisons being made here are false equivalences (I also believe that if it was a separate monster, it would be in the creature commentary. But then again, the mall elevator monster isn't listed, so that's not an argument I'm going to pursue).


 * Right now we're 3v2 on a controversial issue. Unless an administrator has other plans, I'm going to wait 24 hours to see if there are further responses. If not, this is going to have to be reverted back to Monster in the Locker by default unless consensus changes or there's a smoking gun pointing in either direction.


 * If anyone currently has a Twitter account, dropping Masahiro Ito a question about it would be appreciated, since that's probably our only chance of finding a creator explanation. I used to have a Twitter but deleted it a while back. Now, I follow people manually when looking for info or doing research. Darkknight2149 (talk) 09:22, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

yea i found him on twitter, let me see if he responds. hopefully we can get some enlightenment about it! Spirit Slasher (talk) 11:24, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/silent/images/6/6a/ValtLocker.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20210117121824 https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/silent/images/8/82/ValtielLocker.gif/revision/latest?cb=20210117121747

Octonius (talk) 12:21, 17 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Here's what it looks like on a real PS2: https://i.imgur.com/T4DrJg3.png


 * It just looks like a fleshy blob figure and you can't make out any of the back stitching, which is why I'm not 100% convinced it was intended to be Valtiel. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  18:53, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

He responded to the tweet with "Which locker do you mean?" You might have to upload an image to specify. Darkknight2149 (talk) 20:18, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

I added a picture in my reply and stated this: The "Monster in the Locker" (unofficial name) is a non-combative monster found in a room within the Otherworld version of Brookhaven Hospital in Silent Hill 3. Heather Mason finds this creature in the same room she finds the plastic bag in the garbage can.

hopefully he has no problem looking at a cellphone screen shot.

Spirit Slasher (talk) 21:28, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Wow. Will you look at that...

Despite Alex, Ozzkat and me asserting that it is NOT Valtiel, the developer himself has  definitely said otherwise ...



Strange indeed. But hey, this was from the horse's mouth! Spirit Slasher (talk) 22:46, 17 January 2021 (UTC)


 * We aren't necessarily "asserting" it's not Valtiel, just saying we shouldn't claim it as a fact on the wiki without official proof. I just hope he didn't interpret as "is that Valtiel's model?" Can you ask him why Valtiel is trapped in a locker, and why he's immediately outside the room behind smoky glass? — Alex Shepherd   ツ  23:11, 17 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I kinda just assumed that he wasn't really trapped, even if it probably looks that way to Heather. Maybe if Valtiel could talk... https://youtu.be/CCq3yls6dJ8 Darkknight2149 (talk) 00:35, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Should i get any response, i'll post it here. For now, consider him silent. No reply to Alex's question...

Responding to Alex and his question, our dear Sir Ito said that 'He is a guardian of Heather at the same time as an attendant/valet. Also he is always watching her.'Spirit Slasher (talk) 23:38, 18 January 2021 (UTC)


 * That doesn't make a lot of sense. I guess you have to attribute it to Valtiel's teleportation powers being ridiculously strong, or maybe Valtiel messed up when trying to teleport to Heather's next location to watch over her, and accidentally went inside a locker. Or maybe he just wishes Heather to see him in a sympathetic manner so the two can bond a bit, and feels Heather deserves to know that he indeed exists. Oh well, I think we've pestered Ito enough. This whole conversation was necessary to meet sourcing standards at least. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  02:12, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Well I wonder if we could use twitter to enquire on monster symbolism. After all, it is a section that is subject to our heavy speculation and hypothesis...Best hearing from the team itself Spirit Slasher (talk) 04:01, 19 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The last time someone asked about monster symbolism (Numb Body, Pendulum), Ito was like "jk, they have no symbolism, they're just abstract, sorry lolz" and their symbolism was removed on the wiki as a result, including some cool theories about "underdevelped fetuses" (Numb Body) and "Heather and Alessa fighting for dominance" (Pendulum), so I'm not too optimistic about that. I feel like I'm pretty knowledgeable about the series if I dare say so myself, so I don't feel like I have a lot of questions. I would like to know:


 * Who the footsteps belong to (I imagine Lisa)
 * How Heather vomits god, because the stomach isn't connected to the uterus... as far as I know.
 * Was James drunk when he killed Mary, and if not, why did he repress the memory of her death so easily, especially when he carried her to his car and his motive was to kill himself with her in Silent Hill? I always found that silly about SH2.
 * What is Pyramid Head doing here?
 * What happened to Angela's mother? Why did she leave the family? — Alex Shepherd   ツ  05:02, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree with this sentimen.


 * Your point about the stomach not being linked to the uterus makes sense. Presumably Heather would perhaps have an abortion. It's possible that the developers didn't want her to appear naked, but given the amount of sexual content that the games depict, I'd bet my bottom dollar that nudity is the LEAST of their worries. Didn't Homecoming even enter the list of controversial video games for having excessive sexual violence and whatnot?

(Even if Heather were to be naked, it's still possible to censor her body is it not?)


 * Related to the above, this ALSO brings up another question. Why would Claudia swallow the god to birth it?

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagina_dentata) Spirit Slasher (talk) 05:41, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd also wanna find out WHAT EXACTLY the Lurker means. Isn't it a clear reference to vagina dentata?

Yikes, sorry this is so delayed... I'll confess I really didn't have time to read absolutely everything since my last response, but I did some heavy skimming and hope I got all the important parts.

I feel that with Ito's response, it is indisputable that the creature is Valtiel. We're talking about his creator here. He would know. Now I will agree that perhaps he misinterpreted the question and answered that it is his model recycled instead of Valtiel himself, and I do agree we should at least try to gain clarity on that. I do think we shouldn't pester Ito about everything, though... Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt he knows the answers to all our questions, given he is only one member of a game development team. He is also not obligated to reveal all mysteries of a series that is meant to be stock-full of just that.

In response to Alex, I would also like to comment about the removal of theories such as those previously found on the Numb Body and more's pages. There is no reason to fluff up articles with theories immediately invalidated by the creator's words. If Ito has said it's just a scary monster, then we're discrediting him by trying to glean up symbolism he never intended to be there, as nice as it would be.

Lastly, Heather. I definitely think this one has a pretty simple answer: it's a video game that, once again, has "this makes no sense" in its nature. This could have been brought about by ignorance of anatomy, or the designers just couldn't think of another way to deliver the plot the way they wanted. That scene is one of the most disgusting I've ever seen in video game history, so they at least succeeded in that. ╟_Ωzz… &#12288; t a l k 15:29, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

 * The question "what is Valtiel doing there?" was already asked and Ito said that Ito's there because he's always watching over Heather instead of something like "recycled model". I feel that communicates that is intended to be him, not just a recycled model. I don't feel it really matters anymore. I've stopped caring a lot about this series.


 * I'm also not arguing against the removal of the Numb Body/Pendulum theories, just saying, it's a shame. The thing is tho, Ito hasn't worked on the main series in nearly two decades, and my controversial opinion is that fans hang off his words too much. For one, people forget so many details or misremember them. I was looking at schoolwork from elementary/high school and was amazed at how many things I forgot I wrote. The first three SH games are like as old as 9/11. Secondly, I'm pretty sure he just designs art and monsters in games, but doesn't play them, like Yu Suzuki and Shenmue. In Japan, video games are still primarily seen as "being intended for young people" which is why the vast majority of JRPGs are about teenagers saving the world (from a corrupt god or whatever). So I'm not surprised when he's asked about Valtiel in a locker, he needs an image instead of replying something like "Oh, you mean the one in Brookhaven?" I wouldn't be surprised if he played the games once or twice around launch day because Konami's office had a PS2, then never again. I have a lot of respect for creators/voice actors who actually engage in their content, like when American McGee Let's Played the entire Alice series, or when Aerith's voice actor played the entire remake.


 * So while discrediting Ito isn't particularly nice, I don't think every word he says should completely be canon either. It is possible that someone else, like Owaku, gave Ito a monster's symbolism, told him to sketch it, and he forgot the metaphor in the two decades since. It's why whenever Ito says something and the wiki sources it, I prefer "According to Ito..." to be said. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  19:15, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Oh, oh, can anyone ask about picture on the front side of the locker's door: https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/silent/images/6/67/MnstrLocker.png/revision/latest?cb=20210114145252 Is it just an Easter Egg or is there any symbolic meaning? He just uses this pic twice in scenes near Valtiel. I would ask myself but it seems that he doesn't answer my tweets.Octonius (talk) 22:25, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

yea i'll see if i can get a response about that. Spirit Slasher (talk) 01:56, 20 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The stories and lore of the original games were created by several team members (including Ito and Owaku) and then written into a scenario script by Owaku. Ito knows quite a lot about Silent Hill that Owaku doesn't (especially in relation to the monsters and the designwork), and Owaku knows a lot of stuff about the town and its backstory that Ito doesn't.


 * For example, Owaku has said in an interview that he didn't fully understand anything about Valtiel and his purpose until Lost Memories came out. His only contribution to the character was the name "Valtiel".


 * On the other hand, Ito has said on Twitter that he knows almost nothing about Xupilpaba and Xuchilbara other than neither character is Pyramid Head. In fact, if you ask him a lot of questions about the Gods of Silent Hill or the town's history, he'll tell you to ask Toyama or Owaku.


 * As for the symbolism of the monsters in Silent Hill 3, it's important to note that Team Silent did not have as much time or budget to make the game. In fact, it was originally going to be a different concept entirely (you can read the details at List of cancelled Silent Hill projects).


 * Konami wasted development time and resources trying to get the team to turn it into a rail shooter, so their original concept was delayed to Silent Hill 5 (cancelled in 2007) and a lot of assets had to be reused from the earlier stuff. When Ito says that the team didn't have time to create a precise meaning for each of the monsters, he is very likely telling the truth.


 * As for the teleportation thing, again, time and physics do not apply to the Otherworld (and even less so in the Unknown). The Fog World/Otherworld is literally the midpoint between dream and reality. Valtiel being in one room and then suddenly the next doesn't require an explanation anymore than Norman Reedus getting teleported back to the start of the hallway in P.T., or Harry Mason suddenly ending up in the second floor bathroom in Midwich Elementary School.


 * I agree that God being born from a stomach is weird. Ito said at one point that it works similar to the Chestburster from Alien, but if you ask me, it was probably just a simple plot hole (but that's just my speculation).


 * Ito has been asked about this before. The explanation he has given (which is consistent with Owaku's explanation for why he kills Maria) is that Pyramid Head was trying to snap James out of his delusions by killing the monsters (manifestations of his psyche). Whatever he was doing to the Lying Figure was an attempt to achieve that goal. He did say that it wasn't literal rape (this can be seen more clearly in Fukuro), but because the games reflect the human psyche, the eroticism was intentional.


 * Ito has talked about the picture on the locker door before.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/silent/images/6/67/MnstrLocker.png/revision/latest?cb=20210114145252
 * It doesn't have a special meaning or anything. It's actually one of his earlier paintings that he thought would be cool to insert into the game. Basically the artistic equivalent of a shameless plug. And honestly, Masahiro Ito flexing his muscles as the art director is kinda funny.


 * As for why James was able to easily forget killing his wife, deep denial + being tossed into a physical manifestation of what is basically a real life dream will do that to you. Darkknight2149 (talk) 07:51, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

What about my hypothesis that the lurker represents vagina dentata? Spirit Slasher (talk) 09:20, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Idk. I don't have a source for that one :/ Darkknight2149 (talk) 14:35, 20 January 2021 (UTC)