Talk:James Sunderland

Silent Hill 2 Debates
If you have a disagreement with a storyline or character development, please see here before editing and insulting the person you have a grievance with: Silent Hill 2 Debating

Death Theory
Instead of edit warring and insulting the opinions of others (both of which are specifically listed in Silent Hill Wiki:Simplified Ruleset), let's discuss the "Jacob's Ladder" theory in a mature manner and go from there. The theory in question says:

Although some have speculated the ending is akin to Jacobs Ladder, and James is going to heaven with Laura, who were both dead for the entire run of the game.

Now please politely post your thoughts, instead of edit warring. AlessaGillespie 00:09, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I actually really like the theory of James going to Heaven with Laura to see Mary. It's very bittersweet. Although if James is dead, that means Maria, Eddie, and Angela were also dead... Maria was never really alive to begin with. AlexShepherd 13:50, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

James and Laura are clearly alive during the events of Silent Hill 2. Even The Lost Book of Memories confirms they are actually alive during that timeframe. Whether James killing himself in the In-Water ending is actually canon is another matter. In the Leave ending, he is alive. The Lost Book of Memories confirms that.

By the way, Born From a Wish pretty much confirms Maria was alive to begin with.


 * I never thought Maria as truly alive, but rather she is some sort of real ghost or spirit who only James interacts with. AlexShepherd 19:31, 15 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed with Maria being a figment of Jame's imagination. This is Silent Hill, there's more than enough reasons as to why she'd have her own experiences outside of her interaction with James. It's the same reason that Pyramid Head only exists within Jame's perspective, yet seems to have his own history. --Faded-Myth 19:36, 15 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I would ask that User 97 provide the exact line in Translated Memories proving Laura and James are alive during the events of the game, as I can't find it for myself. I also question where the exact evidence is that makes it clear James and Laura are alive and can't possibly be interpreted any other way. AlessaGillespie 03:36, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Here's the proof you are asking for AlessaGillespie.


 * James has committed suicide to be with his wife in death.


 * By the way, Maria WAS alive. She was created for James but she did encounter Ernest Baldwin and his daughter Amy. She wasn't just some hallucination.


 * I've deleted all irrelevant and personally insulting material from the conversation. I'm going ask that the above user begin signing his comments, so we actually have a name to call you, and stop making personal insults, or action will be taken. --Faded-Myth 18:38, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * That's better, at least. Debate here is more than welcome. No one is ever going to see the events of a Silent Hill story the same as everyone else, and that's kind of the point. Anyway, in response to Maria, take a look at the ending for Silent Hill 1, which stipulates in one ending that Harry was dead in his car while the events took place in his head. It's possible that, while Maria is an apparition of James' subconscious, she's still able to interact with other elements of the town, especially since there's no concrete proof that the Baldwin's aren't real either. Especially since it's implied the two Baldwin's are ghosts. And before anybody here says something insulting, that's my opinion on the matter. Debate it if you want, that's more than welcome. But resort to whatever facts you have, not your repertoire of insults. Oh, and please sign your comments, it's easier to follow that way and we can give you a name other than User 97. --Faded-Myth 19:36, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I wasn't going to insult you. I was just going to say that since there is a Baldwin Mansion, it's pretty obvious that the Baldwins did exist.


 * In the first game, one ending shows Harry to be alive and another shows him to have been dead the whole time. Since we don't know the canon ending of SH2, the fact that James commits suicide in one ending has no bearing on whether he is alive during other endings. I see no reason why the theory should not be included on the page, so long as it's marked as speculation. AlessaGillespie 01:40, 17 June 2009 (UTC)


 * If the idea were included in the trivia section with concrete connection points, I can't say there'd be a problem. It would bring the possibility to the fore, without allowing readers the chance to misconstrue the point as fact. My 2¢. --TheGoodman 11:34, 17 June 2009 (UTC)


 * There's NO proof he was dead the whole time in the Leave ending. It's speculation. And yeah, James committing suicide in one ending does have bearing on the other endings. It shows that he was alive throughout the events of Silent Hill 2. None of the other endings show James sitting unconscious in a car. By the way, Harry was never dead in one of the bad endings of Silent Hill. He was just sitting unconscious in a car bleeding to death.


 * Actually, no, it only has bearing on other endings in your opinion. One could easily say that it may be similar to the "death" ending in the first game, in that it throws the player off to what's really happening in the game (that James is dead). Whether Harry was dead or just dying in the first game has absolutely no bearing here, it's still the same general idea. Is there any irrefutable proof anywhere in the game that proves beyond a doubt that James and Laura are alive? AlessaGillespie 00:11, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It is pretty obvious that James and Laura are alive. They aren't ghosts running around the town. Even the Lost Book of Memories never states that they are dead.

There is no definite evidence that he is either alive or dead, so they're both just theories. AlessaGillespie 01:20, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Just, once again, clearing the atmosphere. --Faded-Myth 21:16, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that Faded-Myth =+) That said, should the theory be readded to the page, so long as it's clearly marked as speculation and given the reasons why it might be possible? AlessaGillespie 07:05, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


 * No way, that theory is silly and is complete nonsense that has no proof. It does not belong in the page. If you really believe that James and Laura are ghosts, than that's just sad.

Anyway, I really need to play SH2 again when I get a chance.

Later Gillespie. XD

I think anyone can believe anything they want to for james' fate. He could've just as easily died as he could have gone home, ordered a pizza, and watched random shoop da whoop videos on youtube. Although if he did die, I don't think murder is going to help him get into heaven. I Think the leave ending was true, or the dog one also makes sense.--Dfskelleton 22:13, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

Theories and speculation
Why don't we make a section for theories and speculation? Then we can make a list of theories or speculation that users have since Silent Hill has many unanswered questions. AlexShepherd 00:10, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If such a thing is done, one page per game should be created, each placed into a Theory category, where any and all unsourced speculation can be added. Doing this would prevent clutter on character, monster, and game article pages. Each page could be sectioned off with separate headings related to content (Examples being Character Theory and one subheading per character, Ending Theory, Location Theory)


 * This is simply a suggestion, and the idea is far from perfect. --TheGoodman 00:25, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Father
"His known family includes Frank Sunderland, from Silent Hill 4: The Room who is revealed to be his father." I don't remember that being confirmed. Robert Orville Berkshire 17:50, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, looking at a picture in Henry's apartment reveals that Frank's son and daughter in-law "disappeared in Silent Hill several (probably three) years ago." I guess after killing Mary, James told his father that he and Mary were going to Silent Hill even though Mary was obviously dead. But I guess you're right, it's never actually stated that James is his son. I haven't played the game. I only read about it in Wikipedia.

Anyway, here's the quote.

"I got this photo from Sunderland, the superintendent. I heard his son and daughter-in-law disappeared in Silent Hill a few years back."


 * As well as the several references to SH2 and James, the fact that Mary's nurse, Rachel, is seen in photos and mentioned in the game, I think the evidence that it's his father is pretty solid. --Faded-Myth 19:56, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree with faded here. Plus, only james' father would be weird enough to keep some random baby's umbillical cord. James is almost as much like his Dad as Hannah Montanna's music is like breaking glass, agonized screams, and suicide bomber toddlers.--Dfskelleton 22:19, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

"The canonical ending is unknown and must be decided by each player"
I strongly disagree with this because it implies that we, the players, get to decide the canon ending of SH2 (even outside our own headcanons). The Book of Lost Memories is NOT saying that, it's saying there's "no correct interpretation". This doesn't necessarily mean it's saying "there's no canon" or "the players get to choose the official canon". I want this part removed or reworded because I feel MurphyPendleton is forcing their interpretation of what the Book of Lost Memories means into the article. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  11:41, September 28, 2016 (UTC)

Fyi to all those that care, Alex and I have already discussed this at length and have failed to reconcile our respective differences on the issue. Since we can't come to an agreement between ourselves, I thought it best to leave this to you guys. I will of course provide my reasoning for the wording of the article, which as Alex mentioned stems from what the Book of Lost Memories says on the matter.

"Of the four conclusions, there is no one correct interpretation."

This is saying, unequivocally, that there is no correct way of looking at the ending and which is canon. If there is no right way of looking at it, then logic would dictate that there is no wrong way of looking at it, would it not? Although I doubt I need to remind anyone here, Oxford Dictionary defines "interpretation" (the pertinent word of the statement) as being "the action of explaining the meaning of something."

If there is no one correct way of explaining the endings (as in, there's no way to effectively prove of disprove each) then all endings are of equal possibility. In lieu of developer confirmation of the "true" ending (as the Good ending is proven to be the canon ending of the original Silent Hill) then the only way for each individual to decide which ending is correct is to make up their own individual mind. This is likely what the developers intended.

The reason that Silent Hill traditionally does not make true sequels is to do so would instill a "right" and "wrong" ending on each of the games, effectively making having multiple endings in the first place redundant. This isn't what the developers want, hence the lack of what Alex calls "official established canon" when it comes to the endings (Silent Hill being the notable exception).

Of course, I'm not saying that every ending in every game has equal merit - proposing that the UFO endings are canonical would be a bit hard to back up - and no doubt the developers do have their own individual views on which ending is the true ending. Ito likes the "In Water" ending, so for him that is canon. If all of the developers came out and said that the "In Water" ending was the one true ending, or if there was a Silent Hill game where we dive under Toluca Lake and see the corpse of James and Mary in the rusted remains of their car, then and only then we would have a 100% official established Konami-Team Silent approved canon.

Alas, we do not.

I for one think that this ambiguity is one of Silent Hill's greatest strengths as a narrative, and would hope that we do not ever get an answer to the canon question. Imagining the what ifs of each and having each potentially be true is a lot more attractive than canon confirmation, in my opinion, even if the lack of narrative closure is a bit daunting. But I digress, the fact that we don't have a true canon ending as approved by the devs or Konami, plus the statement in the BoLM that "there is no one correct interpretation" clearly indicates to me that the only way for any of us to have a "canon" ending is to decide which one we like best, which necessitates a conscious decision on the part of the player and in essence makes our headcanon, canon.

That's my reasoning, and I do 100% believe that this is what Team Silent wanted for us. If you disagree (and of course, feel free to do so) I would ask that you give me your reasoning for this, as the reasons Alex has given me have obviously been unsatisfactory in convincing me to change my views on this matter. Thanks guys, I look forward to the discussion. -- Murphy Pendleton  :D  12:15, September 28, 2016 (UTC)