Cybil is dead
True, it was told that Good Ending was the original ending for Silent Hill. Maybe I'm mistaken about the name of the ending, but it's were you kill Cybil and save Kaufmann. I was about to edit Cybil's article, but I need someone to corroborate my words if I'm right.
Vipercool 03:06, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
Saving Cybil is strongly hinted, even by the director, as being alive at the end of the game. I would say to change the table's status and COD to " alive (possibly deceased) ", however, keep the COD if she did meet her end. that way we are covering both ends and staying true to the director's comments.
Explain to me how Harry knows to save her then. Who goes up to someone shooting them and tosses some liquid on them? No-one would さよならを言うことは無意味である 03:16, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
- Keiichiro Toyama left after SH1, and was never involved in SH2 or SH3. He's not the director of the canon anymore, Owaku has more say in it since he wrote SH2 and SH3. The Book of Lost Memories states Good is the ending SH3 follows. Owaku said the "left to the player's imagination" quote in a section about the GOOD+ ending, meaning that what happens in that alternate ending is up to the player, however, people applied this quote to the entire game rather than this particular ending and this is where confusion broke out. —AlexShepherd ツ 03:32, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
So, is this supposed to be applied to why she wasn't in Silent Hill 3? or just generally? eh, so much to consider. Mommy, why don't u wake up?
Vipercool 20:13, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
A. it says "before" she starts shooting at him and arises from the chair
B. it may be done, no one can predict human actions
C. why is this not stated in the Bio about the Director leaving? great point AlexShepherd ツ (thank you for at least giving an explination unlike person above you) and i agree with "mommy, why don't u wake up?"
@Vipercool, Listen, while I personally believe Cybil is alive, there's a chance that she is and isn't. and there isn't enough evidence pointing to her solidly being alive. believe me, i've had this argument before. so i'll say this: I wouldn't put it past writers to throw her in somewhere perfectly alive and slap everyone in the face. but until then, we're just gonna have to let people think what they want. kk? SilenceInTheLibrary 20:25, June 9, 2012 (UTC) (Mommy, why don't u wake up?)
alright thank you, for agreeing and i understand where you're coming from so thank you for clearing this up : D
If Cybil is alive, why has she been missing for over two decades?--TheSilentShawn 18:30, June 11, 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, I just wanted to say this,
Am I the only one who feels its more logical that Cybil is dead? I mean, Harry looks at the liquid as being "unknown" throughout the game, he has no idea what it is, what it does, so why would he see a possessed Cybil and think "Hey, maybe if I throw this stuff at her, all will be well"? I just find myself really doubting that he'd actually throw an unknown liquid at her while she was attacking him. I know, myself, I'd just be like "Screw this" and ditch the witch, haha.
http://silenthilltheories.wikia.com/wiki/File:CybilDead.jpg. Discussion over? Yosha? Mr Hazard (talk)
This 'discussion' has been over for a while guys, no need to keep commenting on it 光 00:10, December 6, 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with the user on SHH that said the Good + ending is so divorced from any logic or common sense that it's practically filed a restraining order and asked for half the assets. AlessaGillespie Talk Contributions 01:04, December 6, 2012 (UTC)
Please stop using useless reverts as a way to talk. There is a discussion page for that. AlessaGillespie 00:08, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Since it's easier instead of using my talk page, we should continue discussing this here (hopefully non-offensively like mature people). Please do not edit the actual text below, but discuss what you think could be changed/added on. AlexShepherd 02:26, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
I'm 21. I think I'm pretty mature Alex Shepherd.
It is uncertain what happens to Cybil during or after the events of Silent Hill. Like Silent Hill 2 protagonist James Sunderland, Cybil's fate is left ambiguous.
It can also be speculated that she either died or mysteriously vanished. There are a few hints that lead to her death;
- The Book of Lost Memories states that the Good ending (where Cybil dies) is connected to the third game.
- It appears Harry had never used his Aglaophotis at the end of Silent Hill, because Harry uses it to save Heather in Silent Hill 3. This is supported because if Harry uses the Aglaophotis on Cybil, he would have none left as he uses it entirely. Aglaophotis is very rare to find and it can be assumed he did not use it to save Cybil. It is notable that finding the Aglaophotis and saving Cybil is optional to the game, and not part of the necessary requirements.
- If Harry saves Cybil, they leave the carousel in the amusement park, however, Cybil mysteriously disappears in the next scene (as she isn't present when Harry confronts Dahlia and Alessa). Although she reappears later in the game, this may suggest that Team Silent didn't include her in the scene because her fate was may have been already planned in the carousel.
- Although non-canon, Cybil Bennett is burned to death in the film, which may suggest she had died, as the film is an adapatation of the first game.
There are a few hints that lead to her disappearance;
- She is not mentioned in Silent Hill 3.
- Deputy Wheeler tells Alex Shepherd and Elle Holloway about a police woman who disappeared in Silent Hill while on a case. He states that the only evidence left of Cybil was her motorcycle which was found crashed on the road to Silent Hill.
If Cybil had survived, she would have most likely revealed her experiences about Silent Hill (as she is a police officer and skeptic), instead of Harry, who appears to have kept his experiences a secret (in order to protect his new daughter). Likewise, it is possible that she and Harry decided to both keep the events of Silent Hill a secret, due to the overwhelming nature of the town's supernatural elements and their shared experiences, and moved on with her life as Harry did. However, evidence for both theories remain inconclusive.
- I think it should be kept, with a section underneath detailing any evidence that she may have survived. AlessaGillespie 08:00, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
A lot of it is speculation. Just because she's not mentioned in Silent Hill 3 doesn't mean she died. As Hiroyuki Owaku said, she's not involved. The game has nothing to do with her. The movie is clearly non-canon. Harry is not a woman. Forget about the movie.
The Book of Lost Memories says the game has an orthodox ending but in the same book, Hiroyuki Owaku says Cybil's fate is up to the player. And there's nothing that says she would have revealed her experiences. Maybe she got scared like Harry and decided to get out of there. As for the Aglaophotis, the amount Heather had was the size of a rain drop. In Silent Hill 1, he had a lot more.
The evidence can go either way. The bottom line is we don't know what happened to her.
- Can you please tell me what is wrong with including (not to far-fetched) speculation if the article states that it is speculation and it does not dominate the article? The creators of the Silent Hill games usually leaves stuff ambiguous and wanting the players to speculate therefor stuff like this can be useful for the readers of the wiki. --Painocus 20:57, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
Don't you mean not "too" far-fetched speculation. Well, for one, saying Cybil dies because she doesn't appear in the next scene is ridiculous. If the creators had already planned on keeping her dead, they wouldn't have kept the good+ ending. Anyway, I'll figure something out when I have time. As we say in Britain, CHEERS!
- It doesn't mean that, I was talking about that one scene only, not the rest of the game. There's a difference between saying she died because she doesn't appear, and saying that she might have not appeared because Team Silent already planned her fate. v_v It's not about "keeping her dead." And it is a bit strange to see Cybil with Harry for a minute, then suddenly see her disappear until the final boss. She doesn't even appear and say "Harry, I'm going to go check out Nowhere." AlexShepherd 21:37, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- Why don't we keep the list, and you can add a list of evidences that you think point to her being alive. AlessaGillespie 00:17, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yes that is what I meant. Sorry, English is not my first language. Anyways most members seam to agree that this list should be in the article, so if you don't give a reason for it's removal I'll revert your last edit. --Painocus 15:21, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Why should you? Are you an administrator? I've already stated reasons that contradict Alex Shepherd's theories.
Harry is not a woman therefore the movie is non-canon. The amount or red liquid in Silent Hill 3 is a lot smaller than in the first game. The Book of Lost Memories is contradictory. Cybil not being mentioned in Silent Hill 3 doesn't mean she died. It's left ambiguous.
And just because Cybil doesn't show up in that carousel scene doesn't mean she died. Maybe she left before Alessa arrived. It's left ambiguous for a reason. She shows up in two of the endings pointing a gun at Dahlia. She clearly found a way to Nowhere.
Anyway, the current edit is neutral and should stay. It neither states she died nor whether she lived. By the way, you say English is not your first language. Then what are you? French? German?
- I'm not saying this as an admin, but on behalf of most of this Wiki's community. Feel free to edit whatever you want, but most of the members here will still disagree with you. As for my nationality I'm Norwegian, but I'm studying Japanese and Spanish as well as knowing a bit Russian, German, Latin and Norse. --Painocus 20:17, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
GREAT! :D Anyway, I know some Spanish myself. That's about it. I'm not in College.
I've tried to remain neutral on this, as Cybil's fate is more or less trivial to me. However, given Wheeler's mention of Cybil disappearing, it seems to me her disappearance was of the "...and never seen again" variety. The above seems just as neutral as Proxy Guy's (for lack of a better designation) edits, but is more speculative on its points. That speculation is clearly labeled, and warns readers to bear that fact in mind as they read. It could be more clearly written, but otherwise I don't see a problem. --TheGoodman 11:41, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
You're an idiot. James Sunderland disappeared and was NEVER seen again. Does that mean he died? By the way, I do NOT have a proxy server. I'm not that skilled in regards to computers.
Anyway, my paragraph is completely neutral and will STAY. As for a vote, there's only like two members and two admins.
- Even though there only is a few active users on this wiki the majority of them still decides what to do with this wiki. Also my personality is of no relevance to this discussion. --Painocus 14:28, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
- As for the James Sunderland thing; The text you want removed from the article does not state that Cybil died, only that she might be dead and then lists the reasons why she might be. --Painocus 14:35, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yeah, and that's biased speculation. It's implying that she's dead even though there is no proof that she is dead. The current paragraph is pefect. It neither states that she died nor that she survived. I even put the speculation tag. And yes, your personality is VERY relevant to this discussion. It shows how difficult you are to reason with. But whatever, we have two weeks to work something out. That is fair. I'll figure something out.
In the mean time, have a good day and do take care.
- I can to some extent agree that the text seams biased in one direction with the more points pointing towards her death then towards her disappearance, but if you hadn't repeatedly removed the text users might have been given the time to add content pointing towards her survival. As I have told you before tis text does not, and I repeat, NOT say that she is dead, only that she might be. As for your attacks on my personality: You first stated that I was pedantic and I do not see how including more related information on a wiki is a bad thing and if it is please explain why. Second you called by intransigent and the only reason I act like that in this situation is because you have stated no reasons why this text should not be included in the article that are good enough to convince me and have instead used most of you edits to state reasons why she might not be dead. If you look at some other discussions I've been part of you will see that I have often changed my mind after hearing others opinion, agreed with compromises or succumbed to others when more people was agreeing on an different opinion then mine. Anyways good day to you too, sir. --Painocus 23:54, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Fate Speculation: Include or not include
[The following is moved from the discussion above to make it more visible for others user] Fine, then lets decide by vote if it should be included or not. I'll wait for 2 weeks, or so, and then do with the article what most users want. If it is decided that it should stay and you remove it one more time I will block you. My vote goes for: INCLUDE. --Painocus 13:37, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
- INCLUDE (I don't feel like explaining myself again -_-;;) AlexShepherd 01:19, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
- Wow, I'm so scared. Honestly though, leaving one little neutral paragraph is not that difficult. You are really being pedantic and intransigent. Anyway, I'm undecided. I still think that the current paragraph is perfect but because you and AlexShepherd keep pushing, I'll try to include BOTH theories so it doesn't become biased. The whole Cybil dies in movie is irrelevant because the movie is not canon. Harry is obviously not a female named Rose. Cybil not appearing in Silent Hill 3 is also irrelavant because Hiroyuki Owaku said that she is not involved with the storyline. It's about Harry and his daughter. No point in including these two theories in the Fate section.
- Cybil not appearing in the carousel scene is notable but it's not a big deal because she appears before the battle with Alessa when she points a gun at Dahlia. If the developers had already planned for her to be killed, they wouldn't have included her in that scene in Nowhere.
- It's true that the Lost Book of Memories says that the Good ending is the Orthodox ending (not canon) ending but again, Hiroyuki Owaku said that Cybil's fate is up to the player. Finally, the whole Aglaophotis is the main confusing part. It's true that the bottle disappears from the inventory after use but it probably doesn't mean anything. The amount Harry had in Silent Hill 3 was only the size of a teaspoon full of medicine. In Silent Hill, Harry had a lot more.
- It's possible that the amount Harry had a very tiny amount left at the end of the first game. Oh, and during the Cybil fight, the player just can't use the red liquid right away. He/She has to look at Cybil's bloody back before the game will allow the player to use the red liquid. That's how Harry figures out that she's infected and that the red liquid is useful.
- Finally, we don't know whether Cybil would have mentioned anything about what happened to her. Maybe she thought no one would believe her. Or maybe she just got scared and decided to leave before The Order found her. The group did kill a police officer and made it look like a heart attack.
- In any case, the aformentioned theories can stay but try not to be biased. Include the rebuttals. The fact is we just don't know what happened to Cybil, Angela, or James.
- The question at hand is if the text should be included, not if some parts of it should be changed. But I do agree with you on this point; some of these theories are, IMO, rather redundant: Especially the death of the film's Cybil as the games creators where not involved with the movie's script, and also the part abut Cybil telling abut her experience as Homecoming confirms that she disappeared from the publics eye during or after her experience in Silent Hill and I also doubt she would think anyone would believe her story. On the other hand I disagree with the "she does not reappear before the end though she should"-part being useless as it is a typical mistake that arise when game-creator makes optional endings after having created the original ending(s) and then is lacking either time or disc-space to create alternatives to all the scenes that would take effect from this. As for the Aglaophotis-thing; Harry is not shown keeping any of the red-liquid nor is he shown using all of it both are possible and I think each of these two alternative should be mentioned in the article. --Painocus 18:56, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
Thank you. :)
- INCLUDE As I stated before, it would be best to include a second list as to why she might be still alive, rather than removing the entire thing. AlessaGillespie 05:35, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Okay everyone, two weeks have come and gone and the result is as following:
- INCLUDE: 3
- UNDECIDED: 1
- REMOVE: 0
This means that the text will be included in the article once more. Feel free to edit it to be more balanced. --Painocus 13:25, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
I decided to INCLUDE it stupid. XD Did you not figure that out?
Canonical Fate (Again)
Regarding the much debated Canonical Fate section. The information there contained should be restricted to statements of the facts; her absence fro SH3, quotes by creators, etc. Fan speculation could go on infinetely and should be curtailed.
Given the couple sentences in question have no grounding in facts found in the games or supplemental material and are just conjecture about what a person might do in a situation, it's possible to endlessly suggest alternatives. For example, I could write a paragraph about "It is entirely possible that Cybil decided not to report her experiences at Silent Hill for fear she would be laughed out of the room." OR "Its possible Cybil tripped on a banana a year later and died, hence her absence in SH3." Both these scenerios are possible so if that's good enough for this wiki by your standards they're fair to include, which is silly.
That first (not very concise) paragraph is thus just random guessing. And the: "the Good + ending (in which she survives) seems to suggest that Harry and Cybil intended to raise Heather together, making her complete absence notable" is just misleading since nothing about two adults standing over a baby 'implies' they intend to raise it together; it's also potencially sexist since the assumption seems to be Cybil would get with Harry and help raise Heather because they happen to be a man and woman standing over a baby.
For those reasons the first paragraph or guessing and the sentence of guessing about SH3 should be ommitted. They add nothing to the article.
"Its misleading since nothing about two adults standing over a baby 'implies' they intend to raise it together."
Cybil is a police officer, and thus can be inferred as a grounded character wholeheartedly convinced in the righteousness of law and order. When that law and order is violated due to the supernatural characteristics of Silent Hill, what is left for her? The speculation is based upon what and individual in her shoes might do in her circumstance: either speak up or shut up. Two clear, absolute alternatives or interpretations of the character.
Cybil perfectly mirrors the pose in which Harry first found Cheryl with his wife on the side of the road in the good + ending, that is not conjecture that is fact.
"it's also potencially sexist since the assumption seems to be Cybil would get with Harry and help raise Heather because they happen to be a man and woman standing over a baby."
Ignoring the notion that Harry and Cybil (if she lived) had survived through exceedingly traumatic, character building experiences which could (and, in this one's opinion, should) have resulted in a closer relationship is narrow minded. Even if they had not been partners in a romantic sense, Cybil clearly had an interest in "saving" Cheryl. --MurphyPendleton :D 14:19, August 6, 2016 (UTC)
"The speculation is based upon what and individual in her shoes might do in her circumstance: either speak up or shut up. Two clear, absolute alternatives or interpretations of the character."
That's just it, there isn't just "two clear, absolute alternatives." Maybe she reported it and they didn't believe her but we never hear about it because that has nothing to do with the plot of any subsequent game. Maybe she died unrelatedly shortly after the events of SH1. Maybe she convinced herself what she saw were illusions and explained them away in her mind. You can guess widly forever, but you can't include all of those, so why should your preferred random speculation be included? Its no better than any of the infinte other alternatives.
"Ignoring the notion that Harry and Cybil (if she lived) had survived through exceedingly traumatic, character building experiences which could (and, in this one's opinion, should) have resulted in a closer relationship is narrow minded."
Its narrow minded to think them becoming closer = moving in together and raising a child together. Assuming the Good+ ending, it would be entirely plausible and likely Cybil would persue her police career elsewhere while keeping touch or losing touch with Harry. You can literally think of infinite possibilities to explain her absence in SH3 that don't involve her death, so it doesn't make it any more likely.
"That's just it, there isn't just "two clear, absolute alternatives." Maybe she reported it and they didn't believe her but we never hear about it because that has nothing to do with the plot of any subsequent game."
What do you mean? Either she talked about it, or she didn't. That isn't a false dichotomy, it is literally stating the only two outcomes.
"Its narrow minded to think them becoming closer = moving in together and raising a child together."
Look at the comparison between Cybil and Jodie, they are in the exact same pose, in the same spot, doing the same thing. Jodie was Harry's wife, and when they found baby Cheryl they adopted her. Are you telling me that this doesn't at the very least suggest that Cybil intended to be there for Cheryl?